Never heard of flushing soil, but I have been told flushing a hydro, helps with taste, never studied it enough to prove or disprove.Intrinsic wrote:I've heard of this but don't understand, So what's the reason behind the flushing? Better flavor in the weed; Is it noticeable?Irwin the Troll wrote:I was flushing my grow to get ready for harvest,
Irwin's trailer park ghetto grow
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the plants die at the end of the flowering cycle I would say this deficiency is due to the freshwater being of the different pH during the flushing cycle. Also this was a hydro project no soil involved. Here's a picture of the white widow which is it 30 days todayButcher Bob wrote:The burns on the edges of the leaves indicate a toxicity...the spots covering the leaves indicate a deficiency. An over use or misuse of ferts is the most common cause of these conditions showing up together. An over use of one element (toxicity) can inhibit the plant's ability to absorb other elements (deficiency). Folks that go on the heavy side with nutes can, over time, have a build up of unused nutes in the soil, which can then start to block nutes the plant wants.Irwin the Troll wrote:They aren't spider mite that's from the plant be in 56 days flowering I believe it's eating itself these are the last picks
If you are seeing this persistently at the end of your grows, but not in the first half of flower, then I would recommend you do a hard flush half way thru flower, to get rid of those excess ferts that remain in the soil, because over time they build up and cause problems.
And get some 4x8 sheets of plain white tile board to cover that paneling.
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Not like that they don't. Typical dying off would appear as a N deficiency. And the dying of annuals is a product of more than just the depletion of nutes...daylight hours and temps play a big role.Irwin the Troll wrote:...don't the plants die at the end of the flowering cycle...
...I would say this deficiency is due to the freshwater being of the different pH during the flushing cycle.
Also this was a hydro project no soil involved.
Here's a picture of the white widow which is it 30 days today
That is very possible...pH can cause certain nutrients to be locked out.
Exchange 'medium' for 'soil', same applies.
The edges of the leaves curling downward is a sign of moisture stress, which can be caused by an over abundance of nutrients. You might want to consider dropping the ppm slightly. Of course there could be other reasons...humidity, pH, lighting, etc...nute levels are just the easiest to test.
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another thing : too strong osmotic cell permeabilty pressure
thats a special flush-only problem, when the ec and/or ph are too far apart, ions cant keep up with the speed of water, and you get strange over/under feeding symptoms
flushing was in the beginning a mostly soil thing, as soil can buffer things, which means it can hold more nutes than needed, so in order to translocate some ions by flushing with plain water, to speed up chlorophly degradation, growers used to put the triple amount of the pot volume in water, to get those ions loose which are rtapped inside the soil ...
only with expirience you can become successful with this tool on soil .... and its not the case when bacterias are your source of food, only when salts are used on soil
meanwhile ppl learned to lower the ec levels alongside the growth rate of the green mass, and without abrupt changes
thats a special flush-only problem, when the ec and/or ph are too far apart, ions cant keep up with the speed of water, and you get strange over/under feeding symptoms
flushing was in the beginning a mostly soil thing, as soil can buffer things, which means it can hold more nutes than needed, so in order to translocate some ions by flushing with plain water, to speed up chlorophly degradation, growers used to put the triple amount of the pot volume in water, to get those ions loose which are rtapped inside the soil ...
only with expirience you can become successful with this tool on soil .... and its not the case when bacterias are your source of food, only when salts are used on soil
meanwhile ppl learned to lower the ec levels alongside the growth rate of the green mass, and without abrupt changes
awoken the right way
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Bob's on the money: nutrient lock-out due to over-fert.
My guess is a calcium lockout caused by too much phosphorous (flowering nutes, phosphoric acid in pH down etc). The affected leaves are towards the middle and top of the plant, indicating an immobile element (Ca) deficiency.
Your early pix show the plant is dark green and nice and healthy - certainly not a nutrient deficiency - but somewhere along the way it has gone into toxicity. Either too much nutrient, very low pH or possibly you didn't change your nutrient solution and let excess nutes (PK) build up. With recirculating hydro, you should be changing your nutes out every two weeks or so.
If you are currently flushing, then the plant may also be cannibalising itself, but I could first see the damage to those leaves back on January 23.
Also, if I understand what deran is saying, the osmotic pressure will be higher in the plant's roots, which contain nutrients, than in the fresh water around them. This can accelerate water uptake, leaving what few nutrients are in the water behind and displacing other nutrients within the plant itself. (Simple explanation?)
I'm not sure what your flushing pH is, but I believe the pH of plain water is mostly only relevant in relation to what is added to make it acidic or alkaline. However, pH variance in a chelated nutrient solution will affect various uptakes, which is why it's better to set your pH to around 5.5 (in hydro) and let it drift upwards (as it should do in a healthy system), instead of constantly adding pH down to keep it at a constant 5.5-5.6 etc.
Where I diverge with Bob is in the leaf clawing, which looks to me to be nitrogen and not moisture stress. With N clawing, it's only the tips that curl under, whereas moisture stress looks more like "drooping" of the whole leaf - which I can't really see, but maybe Bob can.
Personally, I think flushing is a bit of a myth: I've never noticed the difference in taste, and I only really add water to my coco grows right at the end because the flowering process has slowed and the plants don't really need any more nutrient - it's a waste to keep feeding them. All my plants are a healthy green when I chop them.
Now coco, similar to soil, will retain some nutrients, but I run (or used to run, when I was growing!) run-to-waste, which meant the coco was constantly flushed with fresh solution. With recirculating hydro, I wouldn't be flushing until the last week - if you have to flush at all - because some strains really put on weight in those last couple of weeks and are still uptaking nutrient.
I think where you saw more nutrient uptake in the first 30 days, it would be N, as the plant is still growing. After it has finished stretching and is really starting to flower, it will obviously require more PK. It is not that it requires any less nutrient, but rather less nitrogen and more phosphorous and potassium. Also, the first 30 days of flowering is the most rapid stage of growth for a plant, as it stretches out its branches to set up a framework for bud production.
And yes, deran is right: flushing is more a soil technique than hydro for the above reasons.
BTW, whatever you're doing with that White Widow soil grow, it's looking pretty good. There's a little bit of nitrogen clawing and tip burn, but nothing more than a sign you're on the edge. From memory, WW isn't a nute hog. I'd probably be looking at a bigger pot before it really starts to flower, too - it could have another 6 weeks or so to go by the looks of it. If you transplant, don't over water and don't add nutrient - give the roots time to grow into the bigger pot first.
EDIT: I've put a bit more info into this post after reading through Irwin's entire thread to see what else I could glean.
My guess is a calcium lockout caused by too much phosphorous (flowering nutes, phosphoric acid in pH down etc). The affected leaves are towards the middle and top of the plant, indicating an immobile element (Ca) deficiency.
Your early pix show the plant is dark green and nice and healthy - certainly not a nutrient deficiency - but somewhere along the way it has gone into toxicity. Either too much nutrient, very low pH or possibly you didn't change your nutrient solution and let excess nutes (PK) build up. With recirculating hydro, you should be changing your nutes out every two weeks or so.
If you are currently flushing, then the plant may also be cannibalising itself, but I could first see the damage to those leaves back on January 23.
Also, if I understand what deran is saying, the osmotic pressure will be higher in the plant's roots, which contain nutrients, than in the fresh water around them. This can accelerate water uptake, leaving what few nutrients are in the water behind and displacing other nutrients within the plant itself. (Simple explanation?)
I'm not sure what your flushing pH is, but I believe the pH of plain water is mostly only relevant in relation to what is added to make it acidic or alkaline. However, pH variance in a chelated nutrient solution will affect various uptakes, which is why it's better to set your pH to around 5.5 (in hydro) and let it drift upwards (as it should do in a healthy system), instead of constantly adding pH down to keep it at a constant 5.5-5.6 etc.
Where I diverge with Bob is in the leaf clawing, which looks to me to be nitrogen and not moisture stress. With N clawing, it's only the tips that curl under, whereas moisture stress looks more like "drooping" of the whole leaf - which I can't really see, but maybe Bob can.
Personally, I think flushing is a bit of a myth: I've never noticed the difference in taste, and I only really add water to my coco grows right at the end because the flowering process has slowed and the plants don't really need any more nutrient - it's a waste to keep feeding them. All my plants are a healthy green when I chop them.
Now coco, similar to soil, will retain some nutrients, but I run (or used to run, when I was growing!) run-to-waste, which meant the coco was constantly flushed with fresh solution. With recirculating hydro, I wouldn't be flushing until the last week - if you have to flush at all - because some strains really put on weight in those last couple of weeks and are still uptaking nutrient.
I think where you saw more nutrient uptake in the first 30 days, it would be N, as the plant is still growing. After it has finished stretching and is really starting to flower, it will obviously require more PK. It is not that it requires any less nutrient, but rather less nitrogen and more phosphorous and potassium. Also, the first 30 days of flowering is the most rapid stage of growth for a plant, as it stretches out its branches to set up a framework for bud production.
And yes, deran is right: flushing is more a soil technique than hydro for the above reasons.
BTW, whatever you're doing with that White Widow soil grow, it's looking pretty good. There's a little bit of nitrogen clawing and tip burn, but nothing more than a sign you're on the edge. From memory, WW isn't a nute hog. I'd probably be looking at a bigger pot before it really starts to flower, too - it could have another 6 weeks or so to go by the looks of it. If you transplant, don't over water and don't add nutrient - give the roots time to grow into the bigger pot first.
EDIT: I've put a bit more info into this post after reading through Irwin's entire thread to see what else I could glean.
Last edited by Prawn Connery on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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I wasn't referring to clawing, but rather the sides of the leaflets curling down slightly. It is my understanding that a flat leaf is optimal for cannabis. And that when the edges of the leaves start curling either up or down, that is a sign of moisture stress within the plant. While many things can cause moisture stress, in this case I think the food levels are just a touch too high (just my opinion)...generally healthy, just needs a little tweaking.Prawn Connery wrote:Where I diverge with Bob is in the leaf clawing, which looks to me to be nitrogen and not moisture stress. With N clawing, it's only the tips that curl under, whereas moisture stress looks more like "drooping" of the whole leaf - which I can't really see, but maybe Bob can.
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Getting hard to find seeds.
stocks all selling out
credit card companies not doing business with "cannibus" sites
global cartel shit really pisses me off
UN there get out now here comes a vermin infested smoke bomb to run your asses out
stocks all selling out
credit card companies not doing business with "cannibus" sites
global cartel shit really pisses me off
UN there get out now here comes a vermin infested smoke bomb to run your asses out
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how can I grow Kosher Kush if I can't find a safe site to buy them from any more.
I'm to pissed off to look at dnagenetics
Its my credit card... what business is it of interpol if I buy 3 prostitutes in Amsterdam!
Window shopping is a constituitional right!
Black Power man .. rasises fist
EDITED LATER: ok I meant to post a picture of a fist with a sledgehammer but I forget so. The thousand mad mini munchkin march failed anyway.
We only had 36 munchkins and 35 were found to be kids with costumes
The 36 "person" is still being examined by NSA
I'm to pissed off to look at dnagenetics
Its my credit card... what business is it of interpol if I buy 3 prostitutes in Amsterdam!
Window shopping is a constituitional right!
Black Power man .. rasises fist
EDITED LATER: ok I meant to post a picture of a fist with a sledgehammer but I forget so. The thousand mad mini munchkin march failed anyway.
We only had 36 munchkins and 35 were found to be kids with costumes
The 36 "person" is still being examined by NSA
Just because I can't spell misanthrope doesn't mean I'm completely stupid.
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You're right, nutrient-related moisture stress. I think we were talking about the same thing - I mis-understood you, and thought you were referring to waterlogging of the roots.Butcher Bob wrote:I wasn't referring to clawing, but rather the sides of the leaflets curling down slightly. It is my understanding that a flat leaf is optimal for cannabis. And that when the edges of the leaves start curling either up or down, that is a sign of moisture stress within the plant. While many things can cause moisture stress, in this case I think the food levels are just a touch too high (just my opinion)...generally healthy, just needs a little tweaking.
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