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Sun
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Post by Sun »

Little Kate Chaos wrote:It's all evil and screwed up Juicey. All of it. On the grand scales nothing that has happened to Iraq is good or anything I would want even remotely or a fraction of to happen anywhere I lived. Saddam, the sanctions, the US-led invasion in 2003, the sectarianism since. All of it.

But to say Saddam was a good thing for the Iraqi people is not something many could agree with.

Paraded what WHAB?? Get real. He might appear stupidity personified and be laughed at and mocked all over the planet, but he's not that stupid. I wouldn't trust him to run a bath, let alone run a superpower. If I was a betting girl, which I'm not, I'd bet that he was not running the show anyway. :mrgreen:


Not many leaders are good for their people (ours arn't) but that doesn't give us any right to step on their land...

And the fact we ignore Africa proves everything.

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Post by Sun »

If I was a betting girl, which I'm not, I'd bet that he was not running the show anyway.

The Jew bankers run everything....Money is King

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Post by Little Kate Chaos »

It is vital to remember one of the by-products of something like the 2003 invasion, or a country being war-torn is that social systems shut down extremely rapidly.

Imagine if every person behind bars or in a criminal psychiatric secure hospital in the US suddenly had all of their staff not come to work that day and those incarcerated simply and literally walked out of the door to integrate themselves back in to a society near you.

Or in to your mum's society, or daughter's, or sister's or gran's.

On top of that, the Police don't work anymore so every chancer previously restrained by knowing there would be consequences under the law to their fantasies can come out to play.

Then if you survive collateral damage of tons of ordnance zipping around, the supermarkets not being restocked, power stations being dropped from x1000 feet or simply not being worked, no petrol tankers to resupply your local petrol station, the fresh water infrastructure quickly falling apart and you're a small lass like me (or big man like you) with children then something like the 2003 invasion of Iraq is catastrophic on every level.

To be aware of what something like the 2003 invasion unleashes on tens of millions of people, or say a civil way in the Former Yugoslavia, does to those millions that will never make a C&P....then we should not take the justifications and subsequent finds of WMDs or what was done in 2003 lightly.

It's easy to wave pom poms and say war was correct and the 'right' thing to do from an armchair 1000's of miles away, but it should only ever be a last resort when your personal way of being for your whole nation is facing direct and clear danger.

We speak of war here too lightly. We justify it here too lightly. We play devil's advocate here too lightly.

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Post by WhiteHotAfterburner »

And, just for you Int.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm sitting in front of a TV watching Fox. I am not. I have not owned a television in about two years.

While I do have intermittent access to one...I don't have one in the room where I am at now, either.

I primarily get my news from...
WhereIGetMyNews 01282011.jpg
You'll note: CNN, MSNBC, NEWSWEEK, USNEWS, REALCLEAR POLITICS and a few aggregators that collect their titles from very many sources...

That's where I primarily get my news, Int.

So, you can shove your Fox New stereotyping so far up your ass it tickles your tonsils, Int!

:facepalm:,
WHAB

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Post by Sun »

^^Says the thread starter.

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Post by Intrinsic »

WhiteHotAfterburner wrote:In light of the facts, your claim is in dispute

There is, indeed, proof. Proof you refuse to see
Proof?? You have a lot to learn what proof is. “Bartlett said” ?? Proof?
If the White house and, according to your cutnpaste, G Bush both gave so little weight to such potentially politically damaging docs, to dismiss them out of hand. The president and his staff are indeed stupid and it was not a shtick. Of coarse they checked ‘em before smiling and say no comment. Dupe.
The alternate is they are idiots, and his staff were not idiots, Rove is a raving genius.

“There was no way to check the authenticity”
Cough-bullshit, they had quickly check after publication :roll: as if they already had their ducks in row.

So at least you accepted the White House was allowed to peruse the docs and gave no comment. There ya go that’s what I said. What dispute ???

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Post by Intrinsic »

Fist off WHAB, that wikileaks based article is the author interpretation of what he found in the wikileaks docs, not citing of the actual docs or even links to ‘em for reader verification. Lets exaime the wording:
But WikiLeaks’ newly-released Iraq war documents reveal that for years afterward, U.S. troops continued to find chemical weapons labs, encounter insurgent specialists in toxins and uncover weapons of mass destruction.
“and uncover weapons of mass destruction”
Nice claim but nowhere in that article did it say WMDS were actually found, Nowhere.
An initial glance at the WikiLeaks war logs doesn’t reveal evidence of some massive WMD program by the Saddam Hussein regime — the Bush administration’s most (in)famous rationale for invading Iraq. But chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam’s toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict — and may have brewed up their own deadly agents.
Notice he said “initial glance at the WikiLeaks war logs doesn’t reveal evidence..” but nowhere did he show or even say that on deeper look it did either. Innuendo.
Remments is not WMDs the Bush admin was referring to.
In August 2004, for instance, American forces surreptitiously purchased what they believed to be containers of liquid sulfur mustard, a toxic “blister agent” used as a chemical weapon since World War I. The troops tested the liquid, and “reported two positive results for blister.” The chemical was then “triple-sealed and transported to a secure site” outside their base.
How is this tied to Saddam or even large enough quantity to be considered for MASS destruction? It doesn’t. Red herring.
Three months later, in northern Iraq, U.S. scouts went to
look in on a “chemical weapons” complex. “One of the bunkers has been tampered with,” they write. “The integrity of the seal [around the complex] appears intact, but it seems someone is interesting in trying to get into the bunkers.”
Tampered with post invasion? How is this tied to Saddam WMDs? It doesn’t. Red herring.
Meanwhile, the second battle of Fallujah was raging in Anbar province. In the southeastern corner of the city, American forces came across a “house with a chemical lab … substances found are similar to ones (in lesser quantities located a previous chemical lab.” The following day, there’s a call in another part of the city for explosive experts to dispose of a “chemical cache.”
Chem lab, chem cache. What? What chems? What were they used for, to make fiberglass, to make bombs to fight the invaders with, what?
What does what the “insurgents” are doing to fight their perceived invaders have to with Saddam or evidence of alleged WMDs?
Nada.
Nearly three years later, American troops were still finding WMD in the region. An armored Buffalo vehicle unearthed a cache of artillery shells “that was covered by sacks and leaves under an Iraqi Community Watch checkpoint. “The 155mm rounds are filled with an unknown liquid, and several of which are leaking a black tar-like substance.” Initial tests were inconclusive. But later, “the rounds tested positive for mustard.”
Simply not WMDs or evidence of a WMDs prior to the war. This as the author noted earlier just remnants of what is left from gulf war one.

Goes on such vain ..
But the more salient issue may be how insurgents and Islamic extremists (possibly with the help of Iran) attempted to use these lethal and exotic arms. As Spencer noted earlier, a January 2006 war log claims that “neuroparalytic” chemical weapons were smuggled in from Iran.
His “salient” point is about post war activities. 2006? Iran? Insurgents and extremist that never existed under Saddam’s regime?
What does this have to with Saddam or Iraq having WMD or even evidence of it?
Not a thing and that his ending salient point? Sheesh.

Still waiting for his claim that wikileaks docs showing “U.S. troops continued to … uncover weapons of mass destruction”. Never listed where the docs say that or they even imply it, just vague innuendoes from the author.

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Post by Little Kate Chaos »

It's cool to claim foul on finds and actual usage of WMDs but by far the largest Weapon of Mass Destruction in Iraq in 2003 was the US military and it's allies.

And that baby was used to massive effect. We busted in on claims born of lies or incompetence and re-read my post before this one for context.

But that's entirely different of course. To WHAB that's the use of weapons of mass destruction for righteous reasons, right??

:smile:

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Post by ben ttech »

its to bad i dont know how to diagram an argument like one diagrams a sentence.

if we moved the argument, past the argument and onto the structure the argument takes...

the visual representation would break through the barrier in thinkings many folks have, which currently allow intenable arguments to be faithfully assumed.
"disaster is the mother of necessity" rSin

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Post by Little Kate Chaos »

It's fluff.

I saw you on the teevee earlier in Cairo.

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